[Transcript of, "Parenting Without Pity: Karen and Anita", produced by Rooted in Rights] SPEAKER 1: Rooted in Rights is partnering with disabled parents to tell our stories of parenting without pity. SPEAKER 2: If I would've had parents that were aware of disability rights, it would've taken me less time to realize that, like, I could be a mom. SPEAKER 3: We have to have conversations we are not having. SPEAKER 4: There are real-world consequences to you not giving your kid the tools to understand where they are in America. SPEAKER 1: This is a space for disabled parents to talk parenting, and to offer compassionate and frank advice about what it means to raise a child with disabilities. In this episode, Lead Producer Clark Matthews and Program Director Anna Zivarts interview Karen and her daughter Anita from Seattle, Washington. KAREN: Hi, my name is Karen Braitmayer. I'm a person with osteogenesis imperfecta, which is commonly known as brittle bones. I am an architect by profession, and a wife and a mom, and I'm here with my daughter Anita. ANITA: Hi, I'm Anita Erskine. I'm studying elementary education at the University of Portland. I am currently a senior. I have polio. Well, had polio. I'm paralyzed now. What was your experience with disability as a kid? KAREN: Well, remember I grew up before the Americans with Disabilities Act, so when I was a kid, having a disability and anything that you or your family might have needed to do to accommodate that was kind of really their job. When I went to school, I went to the neighborhood school. I was, I guess now in hindsight, very lucky. I was allowed to go to the neighborhood school and I was in regular classes with other kids. But, for example, it was a building without an elevator. So, in the later years of elementary school, grades four, five, and six were upstairs. I was carried up at the beginning of the day, and I just stayed all day. And then, they carried me back down again. So, I didn't play on the playground with other kids. I ate lunch in my classroom rather than the cafeteria. But, I went to a regular school. So, I think that was considered a really good accommodation at that point. ANITA: What did that mean for your social abilities? Were you an outcast? Did you have a lot of friends? KAREN: Oh yeah, I had a lot of friends. I think, yeah. No, I mean, you know me. I'm very social. ANITA: I know you're very social, but for most people, thinking that they're excluded or secluded from the social aspect of school, like lunch and recess in playground, that tends to make them a much more reclusive individual. And, you are very much not that. KAREN: I don't know that I realized I was missing out until the later years. Like in the early years...plus you have to remember that I was out of school. In those days when you broke a bone, which I did frequently, you stayed home. You were either in the hospital for extended periods of time, or you stayed home and the teacher came to you. So, I was not in class all year. I was always out bits and pieces. ANITA: So, how did you make friends? KAREN: I was chummy. I don't know. [laughs] ANITA: Just happened. KAREN: It just happened. Now, when I got to middle school, middle school and high school, then I was, I think, more included. There was a portion of my middle school, now that I think about it, that I couldn't get to because it had stairs. But, they moved my classes all into the little...and I had a locker in the hall with my friends. I don't know. I made friends and did stuff. And, in high school I was super involved, joined the choir and did stuff like that. ANITA: We are so opposite. KAREN: Can't sing. I don't know why I joined the choir, and I was in the senior play. I mean, I did stuff. ANITA: Yeah, you did way more than I did. KAREN: So, one cool thing that happened that I have to say, when I was, I would guess, within the first few weeks of my freshman year of high school, the football coach stopped me and said, "When do you turn 16?" "And I was like, "Uh..." And, I told him. And he said, "Well as soon as you do, you're going to take driver's ed because I know you can drive." And I'm like, what? Who's thinking about that at that age? But it turns out he had a son with a disability, and he'd already been through the system and he was the driver's ed coach...teacher. So, I went home and told my mom, "Hey, I'm going to take drivers ed when I turn 16." And she was like, "What?" And now, actually having been a parent of a 15-year-old who was all excited about driving, I understand why she was like, "Ah!" [laughs] But - ANITA: I did fine. KAREN: I know you did. ANITA: I was a very calm individual. KAREN: But you have to realize, remember, I was very supportive of you learning to drive and getting your driver's license - ANITA: Yes, forceful. KAREN: - Because it was really important for me, and it gave me a sense of independence once I was driving. And, you're just like everybody else on the road, right? You drive a car and you're just like everybody else. ANITA: See, I never had that want to do that. I was perfectly fine - KAREN: Well, I think you guys hear and - ANITA: - being chauffeured. KAREN: I know, but here everybody's got the bus and it's different. When I was a kid, the only way to get away from home was to drive. And here, you know, there's so much more transportation. It's just different. ANITA: I think you just wanted to stop driving me around. I really do. KAREN: Well, I will say there was something about not having to do that 45-minute drive each way to the school. Blah. That I didn't miss [laughs]. But, we got off topic. The topic was - ANITA: Your childhood. KAREN: Yeah. Well, it was different. I think, you know, there weren't curb cuts. There were no accessible parking spaces - ANITA: No PE. KAREN: No accessible...yeah. There was a lot of stuff. But, who knew that was even possible, right? I didn't know that was even possible. So, fast forward to you're going through school and it was completely different. Right? ANITA: Well yeah, but also you did a lot of advocating when I was younger, because there's a lot of people who grew up around the same time I did with a disability, and they didn't know half the stuff we did about what you could have, the accommodations you could get, because their parents didn't know to fight for it. Because, like, I eventually learned how to advocate for myself. But before then, you knew how to advocate for me, you know? KAREN: Well, one of the advantages of having somebody who's already been through the system. ANITA: Exactly. But, would you say that your mother was a good advocate? KAREN: My mom...my parents, both of them, were incredibly supportive of me, so they had very high expectations for me. You know, they expected me to get a good education and go to college and to help around the house to the point, to the extent, at which I was able. I was held to the same standards as my siblings about what I could do and couldn't do and all that stuff. They were of the mindset that it was their responsibility to make things happen for me. In contrast to today's society where the Americans with Disabilities Act, I think, makes it society's responsibility that, for example, the school provides full accommodations. My parents were like, "Well, if she needs that, we need to get that for her." They didn't ask the school for much. And I think...like my mom drove me back and forth to school every day because she wouldn't have, I think, even thought about insisting that there was a wheelchair accessible bus, because she could drive me. And so, that seemed like it was her responsibility to take care of. So, to the extent at which she could do things, she did. But, I think she was able to kind of grit her teeth and let me do stuff with when it was age appropriate. And I really respect that. I mean, think about it, in college, when I went away for a semester, traveled overseas and she was like, "Oh yeah, that's going to be great." But, I wanted to go, and so she let me. ANITA: Yeah. And, I mean, your mom was...it's interesting. You would've thought that...you're an older sibling, so I would've thought if you were one of the younger ones that she would've said, "Well, I let Kristie do it when she was 12 so I've got to let Karen do it when she was 12." But, you were the oldest. So, she was just really brave to be like, "Well, you're at 12, go on." KAREN: Yeah, "The other kids are doing it. You should be able to do it" Yeah. You never realize how great your parents are until you become a parent [laughs]. You are hopefully going to change your mind about this. ANITA: We'll see. KAREN: Eventually. ANITA: I like you just fine to some extent. KAREN: [laughs] Depending on the day. ANITA: And, what you're letting me do or not letting me do. KAREN: Well, now you're adult. You don't need to be let - ANITA: Well, you say that generously. Sometimes I'm an adult, sometimes I'm still your kid. KAREN: Considering how much laundry I did when you came home this last week - ANITA: And I'm still a kid. KAREN: Are there things that I wish my parents had known or done differently when I was a kid that I chose to do with you? I think the first thing that comes to mind is more engagement in the disability community. I wish at the time there was more of a disability community that I could have been engaged in. And, I think my parents tried a little bit. They met a few other people with OI and tried to introduce me to them. I think they were all adults and I had a really hard time connecting with these people who seemed so much older, and I was having a hard time. That just didn't work for me. But so, when you came to our family, I think I felt it was really important that you needed to get to know - ANITA: You got me involved. KAREN: - people with disabilities. So, I got you super involved [laughs] - ANITA: In every possible group there was. KAREN: Well, you had to be involved in the OI community because I was involved in OI community. That was part of our family life. ANITA: And then, got me in the swimming community because all of a sudden I was a swimmer. Don't know how that - KAREN: Well, you needed to learn to swim because it's a safety issue. ANITA: Well I still blame you. KAREN: I know. So then, you got into adaptive swimming and we tried camp, some different kinds of camp. ANITA: Yeah, that wasn't great. KAREN: No, that didn't work very well for you. ANITA: You made me get involved in just regular community like girl scouts, and then you had me in the Indian community. No, you had me in every group there was that I could fit in. KAREN: But, I think, this is my personal philosophy, not my parents', okay? I think that there are always words that define us. Like, I'm a white architect from New England...I don't know, disabled. Okay, Right. So, it's good to hang around with people that kind of match each of those words for you because you are Indian heritage, you have a disability, you like to do certain things. Then it's fun to hang around with people that meet each of those words. And so, that was kind of my thing. It was like I needed to give you role models in the Indian community, role models in the disability community, and think about it, you really did make friends. Even with the swimming, you made friends. ANITA: Yeah. KAREN: It wasn't just a bust. You had a fun time. ANITA: Yes, you were successful, you did well, let's not talk about it. As still a kid now and not a parent, I tend to sometimes begrudge the decisions you made. However, I think as a parent I would still make the same choices because I think you have a good point. And, once you're a parent, you'll see why you made those decisions. And, I work with kids now in my major and I make decisions just like you did. I'm like, "No, you need to learn to respect people, or learn to think something through before you do that," you know? There are just certain things that I'm like, "You have to say you're sorry every time you bump someone, even if it wasn't on purpose," or these things. So, I mean I think I'd make the same choices. I don't know, I think you did well. I'm successful, relatively. KAREN: And still disabled. ANITA: Still disabled. Mom, why haven't you changed that? KAREN: I know, I know. What can I do? ANITA: You horrible person. Should have fixed that. Yeah. That's the one thing I would say, you should've fixed that. We've always gotten involved in groups that we've found fun to be in, I think for one, and so, with the OI community or just the regular disabled community is, we've gotten involved in those and then we've found that it was fun and enjoyable and that we made friends. And, just from that, to see how fun it was to be with people who either could relate or understand the things you live with on a daily basis, made you realize how much of a niche you were a part of. KAREN: I think, wow, I couldn't say it better. I think that acceptance of your place in the disability community really is something that comes to you to at a certain age. And, not having really any strong role models in the disability community, I feel like I had to kind of come to it on my own terms. And so, when I was something like graduate school, so that would have been mid 20s or something, I went to my first OI conference. And, I went and there were 30 or 50 people who look like me. And, at first I was like, oh my God. And then, after a little bit, I realized that these are really smart, interesting, funny people. I got along great with them, and I really enjoyed being with them. And then I was like, oh, maybe other people feel like that around me. And so, it was this great ego boost to spend a weekend with this great group of people. And then, the other is that, when I get together with my friend who...my bestest friend has IO, and when I get together with her, and we can talk about the experiences we had as kids, which might not always seem like...I mean, they're funny or comparable. You can kind of go, "Oh yeah, remember all those times in spica casts?" [laughs] ANITA: Awful. KAREN: That is not a funny thing to my family. That was a painful experience for them. And, they remember it as painful even though I might remember as kind of lighthearted. And, another OI-er feels that same way. So, in a kind of weird way, I sort of feel like they're long lost siblings. Like another part of my family, a different kind of family. And so, time around them is really rejuvenating for me. ANITA: Yeah. A lot of people don't see the upside to being disabled, or the ability to joke about something, like I am constantly joking about not being able to walk, and people say...I mean, just the other day I had a professor who asked the class to stand up and I just said no. KAREN: Yeah, okay. Was that really the nice way to say it? [laughs] ANITA: No, but it was her fault for using uninclusive language. So, did I teach her a lesson? Probably. KAREN: Could be a nicer way to do that. ANITA: It happened. It's over and you can't change it now. You raised me. I don't know where I got that part of me. KAREN: I tried to do better than that. Didn't I? ANITA: Do you remember that you have a husband? KAREN: Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, true. He's a little snarky sometimes, I know. In a good way. ANITA: I'm 50% of each of you. KAREN: Oh, you're so funny. [laughs] ANITA: But, see, you get the chance to - KAREN: I know. ANITA: - joke about it or stuff. And ablebodied people don't know if they can laugh or whatever. But, I find that by joking about being disabled, it's the best way for them to actually get comfortable with the fact that you're disabled. Because if they think that you have harsh feelings about your own disability, then they never want to talk about it, or talk about anything that might relate to disability. KAREN: Right. You've had the person who goes, "Oh yeah, you want to walk over with me? Oops! Um..." And then they get all like, "Oh, I used the word 'walk.'" It's like, yeah, I use the word walk to indicate ambulation in the direction. ANITA: Yeah. My legs may not be moving, but it's happening in my head. KAREN: Right, exactly. It is. That's true. And the other thing is I think that maybe as a person, I don't think...It takes a long time to see yourself as a person with disability. I remember being younger and walking by, if you're on the street, you walk by a store window and you see your reflection. And, I look over and go, "Oh, I'm much shorter than they are! I'm sitting! I have wheels!" Because that's not the way I see myself. You don't see that. You see yourself as...I don't know what. ANITA: When your dream, do you dream yourself in a wheelchair - KAREN: Not really. ANITA: - or do you dream yourself walking? KAREN: I don't think I dream myself walking. I don't really know how to do that. ANITA: See, when I dream, I'm not in a wheelchair, but I'm not walking. I'm just, like, a floating head. I don't understand it. KAREN: You remember your dreams? ANITA: Yeah. Everyone else is walking, but I'm not. I just think it's interesting that...I don't know when I got that identity of disability, but probably 16. 15, 16. It was in high school. This is when I really - KAREN: But, I think we've always joked about stuff. ANITA: Yeah. Yeah, we've always joked about it, but I think when I finally became comfortable with it, or even proud to be disabled. KAREN: I think maybe more like college. I don't remember high school. You think it was high school? ANITA: I think I started to understand being disabled in high school. KAREN: Yeah, you think? ANITA: I don't know. Maybe the pride didn't come out. I don't know. It happened now. KAREN: Let's talk a little bit about that...when you did that internship your senior year of high school at - ANITA: Oh yeah. KAREN: - the early childhood education center. And then you did a project, kind of as a part of that internship where you collect...I shouldn't talk about it. You talk. The notebook that you made and that training you did. ANITA: Well, it was an early childhood education center for kids zero to three who had serious either illnesses or disabilities or things that we're going to keep them from participating in life the way any other regular kid would. And I think parents of kids that young have a hard time seeing their kids as normal and regular because they have this illness or disability. And to say that, "Well, they'll never be able to do that," you know, "They won't play sports, they're not going to go participate in PE, like that's just not going to happen for them." And, their kids are still so young that they don't have yet the ability to see their kid's potential because they're still babies, you know? And that potential comes in later on. And so, I made a packet of all these different programs out there, and sports and things, that you could do...that disabled kids could do. Not that you could do with your kid, but that your kids could do independently and get involved in a community of differently abled people. And then I held a panel for the parents of the young kids, with me and two of my other disabled friends where we talked about what our parents did to help raise us to be independent and the kinds of things that we were doing and achieving now, you know, at that- KAREN: And, all three of you were high school students I think, right? ANITA: No, I was a senior. So, two of us were seniors in high school - KAREN: And one was a college student. ANITA: - and one was a freshman college student. We talked both about what our parents did that really made us independent, and then what things we were achieving on our own now, to see that, you know...and we were all very differently abled. So, to see that we each were achieving things independently without our parents. I think just that really pushing independence is like...so my dad...when I was growing up, my parent's parented very differently I would say. When...if Mom wasn't home and I came home and I decided to sit on the couch, I could get my father to, you know, get up from his relaxing chair and make me dinner. Grab me a glass of milk, or, you know, do the dishes for me because I was like, "I'm sitting and I don't want to get up." And you know, he would be like, "Oh well that's a lot of effort for her." Even though it's a lot of effort for him to get up and do it for me, he would still get up and do it for me. And that...maybe what he should have done was to say, "well, then you can get up and you can microwave your burrito and you can get yourself a glass of milk, and you could put it in the dishwasher." Did I do any of those things? No. Now when mom was home, I wouldn't dare to ask my mother to do that for me. She would roll her eyes and tell me to get my lazy butt up. KAREN: I think that's because your dad very much wanted to make life easier for you. And I think if your conditioned had been temporary - ANITA: If I had broken a leg - KAREN: If you had broken a leg or something, and that was why, I could certainly understand making life easier for you. But, especially when you were little, I think, you know, we knew your body wasn't going to change and you needed to learn how to - ANITA: Still hasn't gotten better. KAREN: [laughs] So true. But, you needed to learn to do things independently and that meant you needed to be creative and figure out the best way for you, like, how to put your pants on or how to get from the floor onto your bed. I think our job as parents is to encourage you to be creative and give suggestions and things like that. But ultimately you have to figure out a way you're going to do it. I think the other thing that I felt was important for you, like going to school, was we worked really, really, really hard for you to start kindergarten with enough skills that you could be independent in the classroom. Because I felt given that you didn't have any health conditions, that having a one-on-one aide would make it more difficult for you to make friends. And, I think having an adult hanging over a child if they don't have health issues that require constant supervision, that it's better. And so, you know, we worked on, like, things like hanging up your coat in your cubby and being able to ask your classmates politely for things that were out of reach, or being able to, you know, get from your wheelchair down to the floor for circle time and back up again and stuff like that. So, it was important to me. And, I think the school supported that. In terms of advice for parents who have a child with a disability who themselves don't have a disability, I think it's really important to not...I know sometimes, especially when kids are young, that disability can be very discouraging, or maybe there are health issues that make it very challenging, both painful for the child and for the family, may cause disruption or other things that are frustrating. And, I think sometimes parents might say, "oh, I hate xyz disability. It's a terrible thing. And, I wish you didn't have it." I think it's really important to be careful about your language around that, because I realized that in my early years in my disability, kids fracture frequently, and it is painful. I'm not going to say it isn't. Painful for the kid and painful for the parents. And so, it's easy to say, "I really hate OI." You know, that it's a terrible thing and stuff, but OI is a big part of who I am, right? I think it's part of my gregariousness. I would equate it, it's wrapped up in my articulateness, my ability to chat so much, and there are a lot of really great things about having OI. I want to be proud about it and I would hope that parents would find a way to separate out the negative aspects of, or what they perceive to be the negative aspects of a kid's disability with their identity, which is really wrapped up in being a person with whatever, or you as a person post-polio. ANITA: Yeah. As a kid, all the time, I would say "I hate being in a wheelchair," you know? And I hated being in a wheelchair. As a kid, I really did. But, I didn't hate being disabled, I don't think. I just, I don't know if you can separate those, now that I think about it. KAREN: Do you mean that you hated standing out from the crowd? ANITA: Yes. I think I more so hated standing out from the crowd and hated that my wheelchair meant that I was, you know, felt like I was on the outside. Or, you know, when it came to playing on the playground, I was like, "Well, that has stairs." KAREN: Yeah. Right. ANITA: You know. So, I hated what the wheelchair meant for some social situations, but I didn't hate being disabled. I didn't really care that my legs didn't work. You know, that wasn't - KAREN: Because that's the way you grew up. I think that's- ANITA: And I hadn't lost anything. There was no time in which I remembered having the ability to use them. KAREN: Right. It was just that you've always been that way. ANITA: Yeah. KAREN: And, just the same way, I've always been this way. All I did was grow up and learn to do stuff - ANITA: Differently. KAREN: - the way other kids learned to do stuff. Well, I mean, you know, I went to school the same age as other kids. I learned to drive. I went to college. All the milestones, I did them, just did them differently, you know? And same with you, I think. So that's what really speaks to...if parents can get to know other people with that disability of all ages, I think it really helps them separate, like, that disability from, like, the - ANITA: Or, even see the benefits - KAREN: - joy and life that - ANITA: Because there are benefits. It makes you part of something special when you have the chance to experience it or see it or see that group of people. It is something completely special that only you can fit into. Like, your parents, they fit into the parent group of those people, but they don't fit in with the people with that disability. KAREN: Yeah. Like, we are the people with it. [laughs] ANITA: Yeah. KAREN: That's true. That's really true. And I remember when I met Judy Heumann and how excited she was. She's the woman I told you about that was involved in the creation of the ADA, who is post-polio. Gosh, I gave you her...anyways. And, how excited she was to know that there was another one, another person, a young person coming along. And she was like, "She want to join our club?" you know. ANITA: Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of people in wheelchairs, but not a lot with polio. KAREN: Who've had polio. ANITA: Who've had polio. Yeah, so it's not 'currently have'...Let's move on. KAREN: [laughs] You've got to work on that language, girl. ANITA: Yes, whatever. I'll get to it. I'm still growing. You have always been so adamant, like when it came to getting the right wheelchairs and getting the right equipment, to make it so A, that I could be independent and B, that I was doing it in a healthy way, you know? KAREN: Right, right. ANITA: Saving my shoulders, doing things that were good for my body, but also, you know, really making sure that I had a good chair, that I sat right, and that I learned how to go out by myself because I knew how to take a curb. And, if there wasn't a curb, I knew how to go down it backwards or jump the curb...or I could be independent in many places. KAREN: Right. We took you to those - ANITA: It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. KAREN: - wheelchair-handling skills classes where they made you learn to ride an elevator - ANITA: It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. KAREN: - I mean, an escalator. Gah. [laughs] ANITA: You'll be fine. You're living. It's okay. KAREN: Constant stress. ANITA: I'm still alive. KAREN: And, it is smart for you to know those things. ANITA: I have a story. KAREN: Okay, sorry. ANITA: Okay. So, the other day I was out shopping with a friend and we ran into this young woman who said she was 24. She had either a friend or a sister or something with her. And, I had my Firefly that day, or no, I didn't have my Firefly. But, I was in my chair and she had noticed us and we all ended up getting in the same elevator. And, you know, we somehow started talking about wheelchairs and she was talking about how she was considering getting a SmartDrive and I was like - KAREN: Oh, she herself was a wheelchair user. ANITA: She herself was a wheelchair user, but not very independent at all. I had asked her if she ever left the house independently, or gone out by herself, and she says she's never out by herself, for now - KAREN: So, someone pushes her? ANITA: No, she can push herself, but I get the sense like can't get in a car by herself, or outside is not very successful by herself. Maybe she doesn't have the upper body strength or something. But, she'd never been out on her own individually. Like, if she's with a friend, she relies on that friend to do a lot of things for her, you know. Her independence is not there much at all. And, we got talking about all these things that were out there and the way that you can get the best wheelchair for yourself. And I was like, who knew I had all this knowledge? But then I was like, of course I have all this knowledge. Who's my mommy? KAREN: [laughs] Okay, well. ANITA: But you know, like, people just don't have that knowledge. They don't know what's out there or anything. And, you having that knowledge was what made all the difference. KAREN: Right. But, the reason I have it is because I made all those mistakes when I was 20-something, where I had a really terrible wheelchair. And then I discovered, "Oh, actually it is better for you if it fits right," and, "Oh, it is better if you, you know, beat the bushes to find the most ergonomic, or the physical therapist that can get you the most ergonomic wheelchair and all that kind of stuff." But, it's trial and error, and you were just lucky because I'd already done the trials. ANITA: I am lucky that you already did the trial stuff, but like, in terms of talking about whether or not to get a SmartDrive or a Firefly, like that conversation - KAREN: Oh, yeah. ANITA: - a lot of people are thinking that the SmartDrive is a great product. Not saying that it's not, but I think you need specific training to use it. KAREN: Well, I think that's where people need to try things out and explore, and again, it also helps, again, having that community of peers that have tried different things and you can, you know, get feedback from them. I mean a lot of what we know - ANITA: Yeah but see, this woman didn't have that community or anything, and no independence, and just like, how much that changes the type of person you grow up to be. KAREN: I think it must be hard. I mean, we live in a city that I think is very open to people with disabilities, and there are a lot of activities around that have already learned how to accommodate people with disabilities. So, you can say you want to go to be a Girl Scout or learn to kayak or join a rowing team or something. And, there are organizations in our community that do that. And not every community - ANITA: Seattle has a lot of that. KAREN: - has that. We're kind of over-the-top there. But I think that's where recognizing, like if you are a parent and you want your child to do a community activity, you know, Campfire Girls or Boy Scouts or 4-H or something, and it doesn't look like it's accessible in your community, you can reach out to the organization in other communities that are doing that successfully, learn how to bring that to your community, and maybe you need to be that camp leader or that 4-H leader that says, not only do I want to have a group that my child can be in, but other kids, so that it's integrated and inclusive and not a 'special' group that's just kids with disabilities but one where everybody's mixed and everybody's like, you know. ANITA: Yeah, when regular kids, when average - KAREN: Well, kids with disabilities are regular kids. ANITA: Gah! KAREN: Kids with and without disabilities together. [laughs] ANITA: Yeah. But, you know, kids who grow up without disabilities, when they grow up with people who have disabilities, they grow up to be more accepting. SPEAKER 1: Parenting Without Pity is a storytelling resource of podcasts, videos, and blogs that honors the experience and knowledge of disabled parents. On the next episode, Program Director Anna Zivarts interviews Keith from Chicago, Illinois. KEITH: You have to give your kids the armor. You have to give them the ability to be comfortable in their own skin. One, they have to understand the historical context, particularly for children of color with disabilities. SPEAKER 1: You can find more from our Parenting Without Pity project at RootedinRights.org/Parents. [End of transcript]